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Possible bugs, feature request, and some basic questions

+2 votes
Possible bug: I've been exploring the synth by loading up simple patches from the tamplates section and going from there. I've found that when loading a new patch, the filter cutoff on the 1:x pole filter that's loaded as part of the patch does not respond. I know the signal is going through the filter because if I change the mode to hipass I can hear the hi passing happening. If I go to the filter type drop down and choose 1:x, or other filter types, then the cutoff will respond as I would expect.

bug: The LFO does not sync to the clock in Ableton Live (using Live 9.7 on Mac OS 10.9.5) when clock is set to master. Also, when clock is set to self, the division knob no longer functions.

Feature requests: the ability to right click a parameter and choose a modulation source for it would be very helpful. Also a straight initialized patch would be nice. There are also a bunch of routings done by default to the main panel controls and these make it hard to understand what you're doing when you change things in the editor, e.g. if filter envelop amount is mapped to the vector controller on the main panel by default, and the vector controller happens to be in the position in which fenv amount is 0, then you can adjust all the parameters in the filter envelope and it seems like nothing is happening because on the main control panel fenv is at 0. This makes things very confusing. It would be helpful to be able to disable or clear all the main panel controls or have an init patch in which no routings to the main panel controls are done by default so that when you change things in the editor, they aren't being meta-controlled by the main panel in ways that make editing unintuitive.

I have to finish reading the manual but... I can't figure out how to set the destination of a modulator. It would be very nice if destinations were available on the modulator's main control panel. I'm having a hard time with basic things like routing a modulator to a source or getting the signal to go through a new effect I instantiate in one of the efx blocks. An overview tutorial video for designing a basic subtractive voice from scratch would be very helpful. Maybe I'm just dumb but I'm having a really hard time.

Sorry if I'm misunderstanding things. Thanks for any help.

Edit: figured out how to route destinations (for other users reading this, destinations are accessible only on the matrix page. You have to create a new route and then on the route's module you have to click the corner menu and create a new destination). Also opened a template patch and deleted all global and voice mods to make a more straightforward init patch. Editing is making more sense from this starting point. Filter cuttoff and LFO sync bugs still happening.
asked Apr 5, 2018 in Bugs_New by ipzid (200 points)
edited Apr 5, 2018 by ipzid

3 Answers

+1 vote
 
Best answer
1] The possible bug sounds like an actual bug ;)  -- Taiho has seen this before, but I have not been able to reproduce it.   I think it might be (not sure yet) related my approach to update the DSP quickly and the UI asynchronously, but there may be a problem with refresh timing when your machine is bogged down.   Are you happening to be running a slower machine, or under a heavy load?

2] The LFO can be set to sync to the Master Clock, but it will only sync to DAW clock if your Master Clock (on the Main UI) is set to External or Ext+Beat.    When the Master Clock is set to Internal, the LFO will just follow whatever Tempo you have set on your Main UI.

3] Thanks for the comments on the Modulation, and your thought process in working it out.   You landed in the right place, it's all done in the Matrix currently.    We are looking at additional ways to setup those routes more directly, potentially as you suggested with a right-click parameter option.    In addition to that, I would also like to see right-click on a parameter not only for assignment, but to allow to see what is already assigned, either as a source or destination.    We've added this to our list.

Thanks!   - Rob
answered Apr 5, 2018 by rob (14,780 points)
selected Apr 5, 2018 by ipzid
Thanks Rob. I'm figuring things out more. The synth sounds great IMO. Already getting sounds I don't get with any other software, and not just crazy noisey stuff either, the wave controls are really useful for making subtle not-quite-sine basses and other things. And it really is crazy how many options you get with every aspect of the synth.

On the bug, no my machine is running fine and the CPU load isn't going above 10% percent when I'm encountering the bug.
Thanks for the additional info.   I am at a bit of a loss, but given the details, I will see if I can find a reason for this.
+1 vote

Sorry for my late response - I've been working on this all day between other things...  It's long (and already slightly out of date), so posted in two parts... :)

No, you're not being dumb at all!  Thank you for letting us know how things are going for you.  This kind of communication gives us a lot of great information to work on, and I can tell that you're an advanced synthesist with legitimate concerns.  There are a lot of good points in here, so let me parse through them one by one:

x pole ladder bug - (I believe you're talking about the x pole ladder, but let me know if it's the x pole sv instead.)  I think I've seen this bug before, but this new information helps us track it down.  I think the filter is not fully loading if a previous filter happens to be a certain type (possibly the bi-quad).  I've entered a bug on our development tracker and we're currently looking into this.

Right click parameter and choose mod source - We have a lot of workflow improvements planned, and something like this is already on the list.  Very astute observation that something faster is needed here, and by bringing it up with us, we understand that this has to be prioritized higher.

Initialized Patch - This is definitely on my list in the MOK development tracker.  I should be able to get some basic stuff ready by our next software rev which should be coming shortly.  Two further thoughts:  One, Waverazor has a lot of potential variation in how it can be set up, from the macro control assignments, to the oscillator segmentation, to filter and effects configurations, to the sheer number of modulation possibilities, that it's hard to settle on a single init patch.  So, I was thinking about making a bunch of templates, like simple structures and more complex ones, setting up different synthesis techniques, and also going after different categories of sounds, like basses, pads, leads, etc.  Taken to the extreme, making inits could be a lot of work, so it hasn't been done yet, but I will at least get it started.  Thought Two:  You should think about setting up your own Inits, which would be tailored exactly to your tastes.  It's really about determining the things you always use in a sound and implementing those, while leaving the rest blank (or open) for further creation.  Any init that I make would probably be useful, but not perfect for you.  However, I can at least get you started by doing a basic init soon.

Main Panel Control interaction with Editor - Yes, those interactions between the macro controllers and the engine parameters definitely add another layer of complexity to how the patch is programmed.  We set them up in order to create useful performance controls, which means that in the parameter settings that govern the controllers we are making sure that the range of modulation is both interesting and safe for tweaking on the fly.  It's also the place where you can make a single control do multiple things at once.  If you want a working performance layer for your sound, you kind of need to check its interactions with the engine parameters as you go.  It's like your example of the Filter Envelope interacting with Filter Cutoff (which happens in most synths): When FC is high, you don't hear the envelope, and if both are low, nothing passes through (speaking in low-pass terms)...  Basically, they need to be programmed in conjunction.  All that said, you're right, there is absolutely a lot of value in zeroing one modulation out so you can hear another.  The best way to get the performance page controller routings out of the way is to go to the Control Overview (press the CTLS nav button, then the CONTROL OVERVIEW tab in the Focus header) and then look at the controller matrix routes (press the MATRIX tab in the Output Column header).  Once there, you can select any mod route module and then Mute it, using the button on the module itself (looks like a computer speaker).  That way, you can keep the performance control connected and then reactivate it later if you want.

to be continued

answered Apr 5, 2018 by taiho (9,320 points)
For what it's worth re an initialized patch I imported the template "Default" from v.1.0.2 into the new version. Took like two minutes to knock it down to a straight up one oscillator sine wave going straight out. For me at least it facilitates learning the synth from the ground up. I love this synth!
Good one!  Yeah, I left "Default" in by mistake in that revision.  No one could edit it at the time, but now I'm glad it's coming in handy.  In the next update, I'll change it to "INIT", clean up a couple of things, and drop it into the Template bank.  However, I like that you've taken the initiative to tailor your own initialized patch for yourself.  Great job!  -T
+1 vote

Setting the Destination of a Modulator - To me this is the converse to your impulse to right click on a destination and pick a source.  In both cases, what's missing is the modulation route in between, and those are currently set up in the Modulation Matrix (MTRX nav button).  In a modular synth paradigm, the matrix mod route is the equivalent of your patch cable, but a digital mod route adds a ton of capability that a cable can't.  For instance, you can split the "cable" from one source to up to 16 different destinations using a 1xN route, or set the modulation response with different curvatures, or change modulation modes for different overall behavior.  You can even use a mod route to modulate the parameters of another mod route!  To do that in a modular, you'd need a bunch of other modules and a bunch of cables...

I suppose the funny thing in Waverazor is that, at the moment, you sort of need to start with the "cable" itself.  Once you identify the need for a modulation, head over to the matrix (MTRX nav) and select either the VOICE or GLOBAL Focus tabs.  (Essentially, a Voice level mod route is polyphonic, while the Global level is monophonic.  It should be noted that a Global route can modulate downward to Voice level destinations, like oscillator tuning, but Voice routes can't modulate upward to Global level destinations, such as the bus effects parameters.)  To the right of the Voice and Global tabs is a drop down menu for adding new mod routes, and it gives you a choice of 1x1 (one routed to one) and 1xN (one routed to many).  Once you select the route type, it's added to the matrix list and you can fill in your Source modulator and your Destination parameter, and then set levels for each.  Inside the route is a triangle pointed at the destination, and if you click on it, you can change the advanced settings for altering the route's behavior.

I'm trying to steer the conversation to the modulation matrix because I think the routings need to live there in order to keep the rest of the user interface clean.  All the routes are there in one place.  Beyond that, there are additional reasons for separating routes from the source and destination modules.  One is that when segregated to the mod matrix, your routes can have clear, independent or group-able modulation amount levels, if multiple destinations are routed after the source.  And Two, both source and destination modules would otherwise get bloated with mod routes hanging off of them, and that clutter would make it harder to see other modules in the same section.

However, I think the desire to route directly from a source or destination module is valid.  I'm open to discussion as always, but probably the way to go is to allow initiation of a modulation route from a source or destination module, but then jump the focus to the route that has just been created.  By focusing on the individual route, you would also bring up the source module in the Input column, and the destination module in the Output column, so the entire chain can be visualized.

Getting signal to and from an Effect - Yes, this one is tough because you have a lot of mixing options.  I think it will help once I get the audio block diagram into the manual (as of this writing, it's not quite there yet).  And we're also already looking at improving the mixing workflow in general, wherever it appears in the synth.  But in the meantime, the way to configure an effect send is to turn up the desired effect send bus on the active Amplitude Envelope Mixer(s), and in the Voice Amp Master Mixer.  To do this, press the AMP nav button, and then the VOICE AMP focus tab.  Once there, you will find the EFX1 bus levels (let's use EFX1 as an example), and since the active envelopes feed the master mixer in series, both the envelope bus and the voice amp master bus effect levels need to be turned up.  That will get signal to the effect block, where you can populate EFX1 with your desired bus effect.  Next, click the OUT nav button and turn up the EFX1 bus level there, which is the effect output level parallel to the Main output level.

When you're feeling more adventurous, you can feed the main EFX blocks into each other by using the level controls at the bottom of the Pre FX Mixer (press the MIX nav button to the left of the EFX blocks to get there).  You can also load up each EFX block with a Bank if you want to get nested multi-effects chains going.  That stuff is crazy!

Tutorial videos - Yes, I absolutely want to do tutorial videos!  I'd like to do more to explain patch creation and even get into Waverazor synthesis theory, particularly around the never-before-seen oscillator parameters.  The first video I've done in this series is an introduction to the editor - did you see it?  You can find it here on MOK's YouTube channel:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AoHEXUSH580

Giving a tour of a basic subtractive patch from end to end is a good idea.  I'll try and do some stuff like that soon.

Once again, thanks for getting in touch with us and sparking a discussion!  I think Waverazor will be improved for everyone because of this.  :)

All the best,

Taiho

answered Apr 5, 2018 by taiho (9,320 points)
Thanks for all the information Taiho. I'm figuring things out more now and doing better. The synth sounds great and I'm already finding some really unique sounds with it.

Also, I just noticed that the flanger puts out a super low frequency wave or DC offset that I can't seem to get rid of. It only happens when you load the flanger in a block in the "efx bank". If I just load flanger in the EFX1 block without embedding it in a bank it doesn't happen. Maybe there's some feedback routing in one of the mixers that I don't understand that's causing it but the fact that it only happens in the bank makes me think it's a bug. It gets louder if I increase the flanger feedback and also gets louder if I increase the flanger rate.

The ability to enter parameter values by typing them in would also be a god send.
Wow, that's a great catch!  I just reproduced that bug.  The flanger has to be in a bank and the rate and feedback need to be relatively high.  I'm adding this to our development tracker presently.

And parameter entry via typing is already on our list.  I'll add your vote to the feature request (which helps us prioritize).

Many many thanks for your help!  Super useful stuff!

-T

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